12 Mar 2008 06:03 PM EDT

Eric Horschman of VMware recently posted on his blog about the ESX memory overcommitment feature. It can be a utilization benefit in some use cases, especially with lightly used virtual desktops. But Eric describes it as if it's somehow a game-changing economy.

The test he uses to support the claim is very impressive - if what you want to do is to power on virtual machines. If you're going to look at their screensavers all day while you do your work with a pencil and paper and abacus, power-on statistics are meaningful. And the moment you power on is the time you get the most out of page-sharing: nearly all pages are either operating system and services code pages (which are identical from guest to guest in many cases) or all-zero (which are all initially mapped to the same physical page).

Unfortunately for this scenario, I like to use my computer. I may push it a little further than some, but... I currently have a 20000-message Outlook mailbox and a 25000-message Thunderbird mailbox open, a 60-page Word doc, a 260-page PDF, five different browser tabs with graphics-intensive web pages... and, oh, yeah, I'm playing music in iTunes too. Not so much page sharing going on any more - in fact, I'm using 2GB on my 2GB notebook pretty consistently. And since now only 15% or so of my machine is running pages that it has in common with other people's machines - unless, of course, our tastes in music and our correspondence are identical - well, how do you think all that page sharing is really working out?

What do you think happens when those pages start to un-share, as people start doing real work? How big do you need to expand those balloons, and how much do you have to starve those guests, to keep your 5:1 memory allocation? And if you can't balloon 5:1, how much do you further degrade it when you start using the hypervisor swap file?

(Besides, try those numbers again with XenServer Standard Edition at $900 for the license and first year's Subscription Advantage, with 8GB or even 16GB in the system, versus ESX at 4GB, instead of adding servers, and see how both the cost and the user satisfaction come out.)

This is a stunt, showing penny-wise savings of an inexpensive resource (memory) at the pound-foolish cost of an expensive resource (user time and patience).

It's all about the applications and their performance; minor cost savings don't matter much in the face of user revolt.

Permalink | Comments (6) |

I wont belabor the obvious- that you are getting a lot more than just memory over commit in the price difference between ESX and XEN.  But I will point out one fact that you haven't really mentioned.

Right now I went to dell.com and clicked through Servers-> Small & Medium Business -> Choose Essential (The cheapest)

 I clicked "Customize" on the R200 which is the cheapest on the page.

Lets say you start with 4GB Memory.  It only costs an additional $279 to double this to 8GB.  But guess what- 8GB is the MAX available.  So if you ran ESX with 2 or 3 times memory overcommit, you could support 16 or 24GB worth of VMs, but to do the same with Xen or Microsoft Hyper-Xen (lets be honest, they are basically just copying Xen's architecture) you wouldn't just need to fork over $279 per 4GB of memory, you would have to buy 2 more servers to go with that memory!

 Those 2 extra servers would have extra cost in power, cooling, rackspace, installation, management, etc, etc.

Over the lifetime, I'm sure these costs would far exceed the price of an ESX license, not to mention you are getting industry leading stability and feature set basically for free.  My point is, your time would be better spent implementing the missing features and shortcomings in Xen than writing blog posts about why users don't need features.

 Your post reminds me of Microsoft trying to convince everyone that they don't need 100% uptime or VMotion.

Posted by Anonymous at Mar 14, 2008 02:40 | Reply To This

What are we talking about?

Companies buying the cheapest server available and wanting to create 8-10 servers in there are not the real world.

Memory overcommitment is a great feature in VMWare and I long for seeing such functionality in XenServer too, but this doesn't mean that everybody out there need this feature so much.

XenServer is a great product and it is growing well and fast. On the other side VMWare is a very feature-full product who's price is lowering more and more. The market will decide the winner....

Posted by Anonymous at Mar 14, 2008 10:51 | Reply To This

Last things first, because you betray your agenda with your tone at the end:

 "Your post reminds me of Microsoft trying to convince everyone that they don't need 100% uptime or VMotion."

Actually, Microsoft did no such thing, no matter what the "He-Man Redmond Haters Club" (remember the Little Rascals?) would have you believe.  What they did say, however, is this:  for 90% or more of server applications, the difference between a five to ten second "fast migration" and a 200-millisecond "live migration" would be invisible and insignificant.  Other use cases, like interactive use of a server-side virtual desktop, would make the difference noticeable, but for file, print, web, database, and a dozen more applications, who'd see five seconds of delay once a day?

And speaking from the perspective of someone who has no horse in this race, because XenMotion works just fine, thank you very much: they're right.

(I don't know what fantasy-land you think you get 100% uptime in, by the way: the VMware high availability solution promises no such thing.  If you want 100% uptime, run Marathon's everRun.  Oh, yeah, it works with XenServer...)

You also make the classic mistake: the biggest feature set is the best deal for everyone.  By that metric, my Audi is a piece of crap compared to my boss's Ferrari.  Guess what: I'm not taking my car out on the track, and I'm not spending deep into the six figures for "better."

Yes, there are certain features that we haven't implemented and are going to -- and memory oversubscription is one of these, because while it's not all that important in server workloads (I've run a data center for a small non-profit for years, and we used ESX for several of those -- and when we tried to go past 50% oversubscription, performance tanked), it is very useful in many virtual desktop configurations, due to the identical operating system and application sets. 

But assuming that the biggest feature set is what every customer needs is ridiculous.  If it were, EMC wouldn't offer Retrospect for backup, since they can sell Networker with a much richer feature set.

Sometimes, and especially for the mid-market, simplicity is a critical feature.  And delivering the value of the storage you've already paid for is a critical feature.  Maybe these aren't as sexylicious for the 5,000-server data center as automated slicing, dicing, and julienne fry-cutting.  But we believe the "sweet spot" for XenServer is the marketplace where server virtualization isn't today: the volume mid-market.  We're happy to sell the  5,000 server deal... but we are more interested in changing the game by selling 10 500-server deals.  Or, even better, 100 50-server deals, or 500 10-server deals.

And the product that's best for the shop with a couple of racks of blades and an affordable SMB array (a NetApp StoreVault S500, for instance) isn't necessarily the Ferrari.

One more thing: I could stop blogging right this minute, but it wouldn't get one more line of code out to deliver new features.  You wouldn't want me writing that code, I don't want me writing it, and our engineers and quality folks absolutely wouldn't want me writing it.

First, VMware hasn't lowered their prices at all. Their prices have stayed the same and their QA has definitely gone down. I know. My company has been a VMware customer for years and we are tired of being given screwed over. We welcome Citrix, Microsoft and anyone else who's willing to join the fray. It's about bloody time.

The upgrade from 2.5 to 3.x was a disaster. Buggy as all hell. In retrospect, I can't believe we paid for that.

On this topic, I have to agree with Roger. Page Sharing is nice, in theory, but once the system gets busy performance suffers and worse crashes. Yes, crashes. And, when you call VMware support what's the first thing they tell you to do?

Turn off page sharing. Bloody brilliant. Great feature.

Posted by Anonymous at Mar 15, 2008 04:10 | Reply To This

Well, I've got to disagree.  We've been a vmware customer for years.  Our 2.5 to 3 upgrades went smoothly.  Why?  Because we took the time to plan them out and to test.  Most of my peers I talked to didn't and some suffered.  And guess what, you get that same lovely experience from MS and Citrix.  I mean come on, try upgrading a citrix presentation server from on version to another.  What a joke.  I hope Xenserver is better.

  Is vmware overpriced.   No.  Are xen and hyper-v underpriced, of course.  They HAVE TO BE.  If they charged the same price as VMware, no one would come.  Lets not kid ourselves.

  We welcome the competition.  It's better to have it than to not.  Likewise, the more choices the better.  But can we please stop bashing when the bashers know they have an inferior product - for now...

Posted by Anonymous at Mar 21, 2008 01:11 | Reply To This

Roger, on your laptop workloads...Do you use this workload all of the time? some operations and services running on virtualisation don't.

Vmware i admit are starting to scrape a barrel with using memory over commit as a sales tool against the contenders, it was more useful back in the early 2.x days when workloads were not as high and customers were virtualising test and dev but now when they want it to be part of the datacenter as a mainstream platform and run apps such as SAP and Exchange its becoming harder and will require innovation from within to advance this for customers.

Posted by Anonymous at Mar 24, 2008 09:24 | Reply To This