21 Feb 2008 12:40 PM EST

Scott Lowe, while stating that he isn't a Xen expert, has several issues with Xen, it seems. Not that he's inherently anti-Xen, but honestly responding to the wealth of hyperbole that's out there (from all sides).  So his is not an attack, but a reasonable challenge and request for clarification.  Since what I'm about to say is also relevant to some follow up to my previous postings about the enterprise readiness of Xen and XenServer, here is a nutshell version of why we are not simply trying to copy VMware, but deliver virtualization as a component of an application delivery stack.   Before I respond, it's important to note that though Scott phrases his comments in terms of Xen, they have nothing to do with Xen per se, but actually our product, XenServer.  Indeed, some of the comments to my previous blog are about Xen, and not XenServer. 

 Also, before I address specifics, let's just deal with the concept of "enterprise ready" once and for all.  The largest deployment of virtualization on the planet uses Xen, and that is at Amazon.  Is Amazon not an enterprise?  Every enterprise has a unique set of requirements, so when someone says that XenServer is not enterprise ready, my response is to ask what specific features are missing, and to prioritize those for development.   I specifically reject statements by VMware resellers that we are not enterprise ready just because we have a different form factor of the product.  But I do accept that we don't yet have all the bells and whistles that VMware has, and so that means that some people won't buy our product.  We certainly do have every feature that VMware had for its first $1BN of revenue.   But here's a good example of something we don't yet have: certification against EMC Clariion storage arrays.  Anyone care to guess why?  Fortunately with the help of our ecosystem partners, and with the Citrix portfolio of add-on features, we have an incredibly compelling offering - one that is suitable for most enterprises and that addresses both native and virtualized workloads.

Memory: Scott points out that VMware supports up to 256 GB memory per host and says that we support less.  Actually that's not true.  Our testing limit of 128GB/host ($40K of memory!) is just that.  If someone wants to put more memory in the box, will the system work?  Yes. The architecture scales directly to 4TB. Does anyone care?  That would be a very expensive box.  I'm not sure yet, but likely XenDesktop will exercise a lot of host memory in some implementations.

Paravirtualization: Scott states that VMware also supports paravirtualization, and also points out that paravirtualization is useless for legacy guests.  Yes, VMware with the vmxnet driver supports what we'd call a PV driver. So, rather than decry Xen for equivalency, Scott should acknowledge that Xen led the industry in development of paravirtualization, and helping to optimize OSes for virtualization (including, through XenSource and now Citrix) all future Windows kernels, which are "enlightened".  We've always argued that the basic engine over time should be  (a) equivalent (arguably identical and compatible) and (b) commoditized, in all offerings.  So Scott, we take your arguments as a powerful argument for Xen's innovation and creativity, and acknowledge your thanks to the Xen community for helping VMware to find a better model for the future development of its hypervisor.   I think I was  the first to welcome VMware to the era of Paravirtualization.

Where we (XenServer) do have a very significant edge, and Scott doesn't have all the facts is that .. with some careful work one can really optimize the performance of legacy Windows on Xen's PV hypervisor - which we've done. So we do a very good job for Windows virtualization. Not all Xen implementations do, by the way - we regard that as proprietary value add.   I also repeatedly hear about lack of HA etc in XenServer.  Well, I found a customer using NetScaler as an application layer HA tool for XenServer recently, and this is a perfect example of why XenServer, with the Citrix portfolio, offers a richer environment for customers than simply jamming every known IT infrastructure function into the virtual infrastructure layer.    It is also true that XenServer is still a follower to VMware VI3.  Hey, they've been at it 10 years and we've been going for 3.  But at a core functionality level, we are absolutely there, and the relative differences are rapidly diminishing.  Working with a rich ecosystem of partners is the right way to finish off the remaining gaps.

At a fundamental level there is a key difference between the way we build our product and the way it is factored for market, versus VMware's: We have an open, pluggable storage architecture with no clusterfs, but support a range of storage back-ends including tight coupling to virtualization-aware storage infrastructure, such as NetApp arrays and the ONTAP API.  We have a powerful partnership with Symantec, and there are more storage vendors to come. We like it, storage vendors like it, customers like it because it doesn't break existing storage management procedures, values the contribution of the storage infrastructure vendors, and fits in with what customers have today. We don't have a centralized management console that purports to be the god of all things virtual, and therefore represents a single point of failure. We do have a redundant management architecture that explicitly endorses 3rd party plugins, and we go to market with a strong ecosystem of ISV add-ons, rather than excluding them from the opportunity.  And we're not a systems management vendor, so we're delighted to plug into the management console of choice of our customer - System Center, Director/Tivoli, HP VMM/OV, BMC, CA - you name it.  We haven't ever shipped a hotfix, and VMware ships more than one per week.  In my view, the patch rate is a very significant statement about the failure to meet enterprise quality levels on the part of VMware.  I'm not saying we have no issues, just that we haven't needed to ship any patches yet - and we've had the ability based on our relatively smaller footprint, to deliver 2-3 releases per year.

We offer much better price performance, and a portfolio of products that extends the value prop of virtualization up the app delivery stack, and through the network itself. From an end to end perspective, we have more 'stuff' to make the user's use case work than VMware does, and therefore have a very powerful set of offerings. 

Finally, we offer solutions that address both native workloads and virtualized workloads - through XenServer Platinum which includes dynamic provisioning for both native and virtualized workloads, "any-ness", and comprehensive workload management while dramatically reducing VM / image sprawl.  VMware does nothing for the 90% of servers that today are not virtualized, other than promise to virtualize them for an exhorbitant fee.

That's about it.

Permalink | Comments (9) |

Could you give us some more detail on that "Never shipped a hotfix" statement? I see 3 hotfixes for 4.0.1 (granted, a remarkably low number) which is more than "none."

Posted by Anonymous at Feb 21, 2008 18:35 | Reply To This

Yup, these were hotfixes added in betas pre release, AFAIK.

Simon,

don't you think that the argument about having an open storage architecture Vs VMware's proprietary is sort of double sword? I mean .. sure you are more open and customers can plug any third party technology they are familiar with but doesn't this add up costs for the customer whereas VMware provides an out-of-the-box solution for a given (yet high) price? Based on latest discussions with XenSource / Citrix folks the "well you can always use one of our partners to achieve that functionality" often popped up (and not limited to the storage piece).... isn't this going to hurt your "price/features" story over time?

You might think I am yet another "VMware fan-boy" (which I am not) although I admit that has been my background for the last 8 years). Just keep up the good work ... what we all want to see is more competition in this market that will turn into more features at lower prices for all our clients. That's about it.

Thanks. Massimo Re Ferre'

IBM Server Group

Technical Sales Support

(Personal Blog @ http://www.it20.info)

Simon (and Massimo),

 

In my keynote in the Virtualization Event in Belgium, I spoke about "Usable Source", we have had long discussions about Open Source and Closed Sources. Let me tell you about something which makes me to think. And this is about the Real-Analysis which I am basing on the current "leaked" info on Security and VMSafe, which is going to be probably revealed at VMworld.

 

What happened in this happy world of Closed Source?

 Here I go a bit speculating since I don't have any inside information on what will be revealed, VMware may sideline some niche and start-up security firms by tying up with big-daddy security firms like McAfee, Symantec. Is this bad? No way, it's great for VMware, everyone plugs in but there is a price to pay. I am having a lot of discussions from VMware addicts who are worried about this approach of the "New Vendor Lock-in" evolution. Is this good for those security start-ups? Take a wild guess

 Citrix's acquisition of XenSource may have completed but the transition is coming through as far as other aspects are concerned. Citrix is coming up with a great Dynamic Delivery Framework and that is totally focused on apps. Yes, the ones that you and I use to get things done, like me typing these texts on my Mozilla app.

The ethical discussions on whether to open or close is actually something we should throw out of the window, we should talk about "Usability"!

 
what does a customer need?
-Cheap yet reliable services and infrastructure
-dynamic data center services
- adaptive sourcing models
- Transformational business roadmaps

And the first step is to get the clients connect to their apps, because no matter what you put in between, the these two (customers and apps) are not about to go away. Who gets these two closer and tightly integrated will have a considerable hold on the pie.

Posted by Anonymous at Feb 22, 2008 11:05 | Reply To This

Massimo and Tarry

First off, thanks for the courtesy of reading my blog, and indeed for offering such insightful comments and questions.  It's great to have a discussion of substance like this.

Massimo raises an interesting question, which is one that has indeed plagued me:  We offer an open solution that allows different storage, management and other "plug in" functionality the opportunity to (a) fill gaps in our product and (b) offer new value propositions to the customer that other virtualization solutions can't.   Yes, it's a double edged sword, for the following reasons:

  1. We don't want to make the customer choose from a complex catalog of compatible parts, building their own solution and incurring complexity
  2. We need to keep the total solution cost competitive.

The first issue can be addressed by allowing our solution partners - trusted advisors to the customer - to offer pre-integrated solutions that meet customers needs (also these allow vendor-specific integrated solutions, such as an IBM System X box with IBM storage as a tightly coupled solution).  Also we will do a good deal of integration and test prior to product shipment, so that the product should "just work" in the ways that we desire.  Finally the recently introduced Citrix Workflow Studio will give us and our partners over time an ability to integrate our product with those of other vendors, to deliver a more compelling solution to the customer.

The second issue will be addressed by transparency of ROI.  By way of example, I frequently get customers telling me that while they like the concept of VDI from VMware, deploying it on their SAN is outrageously expensive - too many VMs, and HBAs aren't free either. THat's not VMware's fault per-se... only that they really haven't spent the time to get their product to work with non SAN based storage until very recently.   Customers and partners add value at the market price for that value.  Expensive VMware plus expensive SAN for VDI?  No.  XenDesktop and a NetApp filer, while leveraging built-in array snapshots and cloning functionality and thin provisioning for dramatically lower cost?  And choice of best of breed storage and virtualization?  Yes.  One has to have faith in customers rational ability to make choices, which is all we stand for.  Well... that and a great virtualization platform.

Tarry touches on the open source vs closed argument.   In my view it's simple: An entirely open sourced product leaves only a support / services business model.  That was never available to us at XenSource, moreover it has the horrible tendency to reduce to cost - just look at what Oracle is trying to do to Red Hat.  Instead, commoditizing an agreed layer of functionality from which a value-priced ecosystem can benefit, adding its own solution and customer focussed add-on features has the enormous benefit of accelerating all vendors in the market, reducing their risk, and allowing them to price their products to the value that the customer places in them.

Simon,

this is a great discussion and I am happy we are exchanging ideas coming from different backgrounds without incurring in "too strong/passionate" discussions as I have seen lately on these boards.

If I can, I'd like to play the devil's advocate again (so that you will have a chance to respond...) .

As per #1 ... that's an interesting point. There has been a similar discussion on the VMware forum regarding ESX being able to be support modular storage plug-ins into the kernel. You can read it here: http://communities.vmware.com/thread/127659?tstart=0

My comments were posted before reading your response so they are "genuine". I really (personally) value the all-in-one solution for the reasons described there. I don't clearly want to get back to the old days where a single vendor would provide the whole stack that is from the case (and its screws) all the way up to the database/application as a single monolithic thing.... sure not... but on the other hand the more you open it, the more complex it gets (Windows is a good example). But this doesn't mean it's something that won't work and you can still make tons of money out of this strategy (Windows is still a good example). I guess this will just come down to personal preferences as to what level of modularity you want and I am just expressing my preference here.

As per #2 ... that is another interesting point as well. In reality what happens in the market is that vendors (i.e. like me and you) try to sell on TCO... whereas customers tend to buy on TCA (Total Cost of Acquisition). It's a fact. There are informed customers that value the TCO analysis and other customers that won't bother.  Desktop virtualization (much more than server virtualization) is a bad battle-field for us. Clearly there is much more attention in the desktop space (than in the server space) about the concept of cost per user/seat. Nowadays customers buy desktops for about 400$ (maybe even less in volumes) and we are trying to sell them a desktop virtualization solution that might cost in total about 1000/1500$ (consider servers + thin clients + software + etc etc). I was for example laughing at a Citrix distributors months ago when he was trying to sell me Ardence (now Provisioning Server) for XP vm's at about the cost of a PC... "Are you kidding? 400$ for just a small optional part of our desktop virtualization offering?". The problem with that is there are some 8/10 vendors involved in desktop virtualization projects and everybody is trying to get a big piece of $$$$$$$ playing the TCO game. This adds up very quickly and if you take into account all cool things from them (like the Wyse TCX just as an additional example) it's easy to get close to the 3000$ per seat. I am not saying that it's not a good bargain if you take into account TCO ..... but not all customers buy on TCO and future savings. This is another interesting discussion on VDI licensing and TCO if interested by the way:  http://communities.vmware.com/message/868000 (skip close to the end for the licensing / TCO discussion)

Interestingly enough.... I met customers that were intimately convinced about the TCO savings ..... but their problem was that they had a budget of 10000$ and they needed to provide a desktop solution for about 20 new hirings. Do the math.... even though he would buy all the cool stuff with low TCO .... either we cost 500$ per seat or .....

Well back on track... if you ask me ... 5000$ per a XenServer Ultimate 2-socket license is not cheap. By the way VMware has already publicly talked about a new technology called SIM (Scalable Image Management) that would solve the pooling problem of VDI (for the records I like more your provisioning server than their technology but this is not the point). Assuming VMware is going to include this with their Enterprise license (around 5500$?) your products would already be closed in terms of price.

But I think I have digressed a bit with this post already .... 

Massimo.


Posted by Anonymous at Feb 23, 2008 11:18 | Reply To This

Above Anonymous Nut was me

Hello Simon,

I hope you read this as it's a late reply, but somehow i missed this post due to the fact I was at Vmworld !

In relation to your statements on 'what exact enterprise features are missing' and prioritizing those within Citrix for development I commend that idea and look forward to being part of a roundtable event at some time. I could write a book on what enterprise features are missing from both XenServer, Vmware's VI products and lots of others on the market. However the point relates to how Citrix position XenServer against the likes of XEN, XVM, Hyper-V, and heck Vmware workstation/server and in what capacity in the data center. I'm all up for using XenServer for test, npe, labs etc. However I'd likely consider if this was a wise idea for my production servers. It's nothing to do with the fact I'm worried about performance of XenServer, or the fact that I am worried about putting all my eggs in one basket (XenMotion is relatively new, previous to this all my egg's would have been stuck to a single host).

As for your statement about Amazon, I've got no idea what you term an enterprise to be. Personally I don't class Amazon, Google and a like in the normal enterprise categories. Yes Amazon might have the biggest Xen thing on the planet, but this is supported by extremely talented, rare and expensive engineers who no doubt contributed to Xen's development. However if you break down Amazon or Google into their own smaller company units that host things like exchange, sql etc then they will almost certainly use Vmware for this in a production setup(assuming they have even adopted any form of virtualization in production). That said Google like using their own software, so I am sure most employee's are not using exchange and regular business server types, more likely gmail etc.

I agree that Vmware have to a certain degree only really(last 3-4 years) started to tick some of the boxes that enterprises need to satisfy using a virtual platform to host production servers, and to that end you could take a similar market where they were at this time. But I sort of see it like this; depending on your own concerns as an enterprise will ultimately dictate what option you take if you make the bold move to have production virtual servers.

To give you a couple of points of what I think are important to production virtual environments. And how these rate/exist. This is by no means accurate, and please correct this as I have only based this on limited use of XenServer. And MS need to be compared also.

Some Key Enterprise features

Type + Importance(1low - 5high) XenServer Vmware VI3.5
Live migrations (4) Yes Yes
Performance(5) Yes Yes
Networking/resiliency(5) Partial Yes but could do more
Templates with easy update such as change type to VM for updates and back(3) No Yes
Sysprep(3) No Yes
Alarms/rules etc(3) No Yes
SECURITY: Delegation/roles(5) No Yes
SECURITY: Central logging of events(5) No Yes
Single point of 'management' failure No No* servers carry on running and you can connect to hosts directly OR design a HA solution for Vcenter such as making it VM
        
Posted by Anonymous at Mar 13, 2008 21:28 | Reply To This